8/23/2011 8:09:00 AM
Topic:
Curt's Paper Salvation
pamruski
Posts: 21
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Notes taken from Philippians message #39
“Objects of God’s Love Pt 2”
You can find the upload on youtube under my "playlist" scroll down to
"10 Commandments 7-29-07 No 39
These notes are taken from Pt 7.
www.youtube.com/user/GraceAboundedMore
Youtubetitle #7 7 29 2007 Curt's Salvation No 39 Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
All have sinned....time past
and are continuously, constantly, consistently...coming short of the perfectglory of God Almighty.
None of us measure up to the perfection of God Almighty himself. Nothing lessthan that will enter heaven.
Why do you think God said to those under The Law Contract, "Be yeperfect". he knew they couldn't be perfect. That was the point of the law.Not to make them good but to show them they better depend upon his gracebecause they'd never earn it through their performance.
Romans 3:20 Thereforeby the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for bythe law is the knowledge of sin.
When all my sin was placed on my saviour at Calvary, he bore it all and paidthe full price of it back then before I was ever born.
God took all of my sin all or your sin upon himself at Calvary...your past sin,your present sin and future sin. He died for that sin. He was buried puttingthat sin out of God's sight forever. God's iron clad guarantee that he'sforever satisfied with what Christ did on your behalf. Christ rose again. Ifthere was one sin left unforgiven where you are concerned Christ would be inthe ground paying for that sin.
See why the resurrection is so important to the believer today? That's why Paulnever says if you forgive God will forgiven. That's Israel under The Law Contract.....Matthew6:12 And forgive usour debts, as we forgive our debtors. Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgivemen their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgivenot men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
What does Paul say? Forgive others as God HATH already forgiven you.
Ephesians 4:32 And beye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God forChrist's sake hath forgiven you.
Colossians 2:13 Andyou, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath hequickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
What a marvelous thing to see that sin is not the question with God any longerwith no man. No man will be in hell because of sin.
Men will be in hell because of a rejection of the finished work of the saviour.That's the issue in the eyes of God today.
The sin question was settled where? AT the Cross.
What was the verdict? Guilty.
What was the penalty? Death.
Who took it? Jesus Christ.
How much of it? All of it.
How much did he leave for you. None of it.
Don't have to close your eyes to believe it.
You don't have to ask him for it.
You're to believe he's done it.
The Sinner's Prayer answered nearly 2,000 years ago and in the affirmative.
You don't have to come to an altar. The last sacrifice ever to be given for sinwas the sacrifice that Christ made at Calvary. There's no more altar. Don'tmarch up to an altar folks. Alter time is over. Belief time is here.
Do we take God at HIS WORD concerning what Christ did for us and do we say PAIDIN FULL as Christ said PAID IN FULL?
OR do we say "Well, that sounds a little bit toeasy for me!?!?! That may allow my neighbor to get away with a few things...justmay give him a license to sin." (as though we needed one in the first place).
You don't have to close your eyes to get it.....all you have to do is take Godat his word right where you sit with your eyes wide open.
You can say,"From this moment on I'm going to decide to take God at his word. If hebelieves it's true what his son accomplished for me..sufficient to satisfyhim.....then I'll stand where he stand on that issue and it will satisfy me aswell.
Then you're free. No more of your life has to be spent worrying about what am Igoing to do to get God angry or make God happy. What am I going to do to makesure that my scale tips sufficiently that I might enter heaven? That issue wassettled once and for all. Christ settled it at Calvary on your behalf. Theissue now is you're free. You don't have to worry about any of those things. Nowyou can serve one another. Now you're free to worry how we relate to oneanother and it's only our reasonable service that we practice agape on theirbehalf. (Romans 12:1 & 2)
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8/23/2011 7:54:03 AM
Topic:
10 Commandments Pt 5
pamruski
Posts: 21
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“Objects of God’s Love Pt 2”
You can find the upload on youtube under my "playlist" scroll down to
"10 Commandments 7-29-07 No 39
These notes are taken from Pt 5.
www.youtube.com/user/GraceAboundedMore
Youtubetitle #5 7 29 2007 Law Definition No 39
How does agape fulfill the Law? The Law defined what itmeant to love your neighbor as yourself. When the Israelites looked at the Lawof Moses they were actually looking at a statement from God himself as to whatit meant to love your neighbor as yourself.
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery,
How does agape fulfill that particular law? Our union with our mate is to be apicture of our union with Christ according to Paul. (Ephesians chapter 5) That'sthe purpose of marriage today, to be a picture of our never ending union withChrist.. We're members of Christ flesh of his bones. We are the body of Christ.Perfectly united to him, one with him, joined to him in a unique and eternallyunion relationship.
Does Christ allow anything to come between the believer and his love for thatbeliever? Of Course not!
By not committing adultery, we are demonstrating agape not only where ourspouses are concerned but for our neighbors as well. If you love your spouse,you'll do nothing to damage her mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually.If you agape her it's without saying, you'll not commit adultery.
If we are to love are wives as the same manner that Christ loved the church,we'll do nothing to create an emotional breakdown in our relationship not tomention the possible physical aspect of an adulteress relationship.
Christ loves us unconditionally. On the other hand if you love your neighbor asyoursel,f how much would you want to bring mental anguish, physical, emotional,spiritual damage to that individual to that family?
Romans 13:9 ..., Thou shalt not kill..
Matthew 5:21 Ye haveheard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoevershall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matthew 5:22 But I sayunto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be indanger of the judgment:
Christ identified the attitude behind murder. The real problem resident thecore of murder is the missed placed anger one person has for another.
Angry without a cause.. misplaced or an inappropriate expressed anger issomething we're all aware of and have been guilty at in each of our lives fromone time or another.
Anger wears many faces.
Anger lies at the root of gossip according to physiologist.
Anger is the emotion that lies at the heart of such an innocent appearing thingas sarcastic humor.
Emotional murder..reputational murder...killing wears many faces as Anger does.Agape forgives others. (Ephesians 4:32)
Your agape love for Christ (not talking about emotion, our action love forChrist) is no greater than our action love for the one that we actively lovethe least in the body of Christ.
Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not steal
Ephesians 4:28 Let himthat stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands thething which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. (Agapefinding way to help others)
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8/23/2011 7:41:03 AM
Topic:
10 Commandments Pt 4
pamruski
Posts: 21
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Notes taken from Philippians message #39
“Objects of God’s Love Pt 2”
You can find the upload on youtube under "playlist" scroll down to
"10 Commandments 7-29-07 No 39
These notes are taken from Pt 4.
www.youtube.com/user/GraceAboundedMore
Youtubetitle #4 7 29 2007 Exercise Agape No 39 Paul is dealing with the fulfillment of that second aspectof the law. He's telling us about that part of the law that governed man'srelationship with man and how agape fits and fulfills that part of the law. Notman's relationship with God, that's already been established on a much higherplane than our performance. It's was established on the plane of Christ'sperformance on our behalf and our acceptance of that.
Paul's bringing up man's relationship with man here. Another wards he's tellingus how we should present ourselves to to others in light of the fact that weare already judicially complete in the person of Christ our saviour.
That second aspect of the law can be indeed fulfilled through the believersexercise of agape. It's our reasonable service (Romans 12:1).
Does that mean if it's not fulfilled, we lose that right relationship will GodAlmighty? If that were the case there wouldn't one of us make it. There wouldno one in heaven for you to shake hands with. There would be no one with you tospeak about or speak to because none of us would make it.
Even this second aspect of the law that's fulfilled through agape is not themeasure of our righteous standing before God Almighty. That righteous standingwas given us IN CHRIST in our union with the righteousness of the son.
2 Corinthians 5:21....thatwe might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Paul's point here is the law can be fulfilled when it comes to man dealing withman, the law can be fulfilled in that one word AGAPE (love).
Won't earn your salvation.
Can't buy your eternal life with it.
You'll never merit the rapture based on your successful performance of it.
But you should certainly live in accordance with who God's already made you tobe in the person of his son. In fact, due to what Christ has alreadyaccomplished on your behalf, since he accomplished it for you freely, you oweit to others to deal with them in the manner Paul's spelling out for us here
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that lovethanother hath fulfilled the law.
This is your debt to others.... your reasonable service.
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8/23/2011 7:32:03 AM
Topic:
10 Commandments Pt 3
pamruski
Posts: 21
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“Objects of God’s Love Pt 2”
You can find the upload on youtube under my "playlist" scroll down to
"10 Commandments 7-29-07 No 39
These notes are taken from Pt 3.
Pt 3 7 29 07 Right With God No 39
www.youtube.com/user/GraceAboundedMore
How do we have a right relationship with God?
What would it take to get right with God?
Where would you start?
What would you do to get right with God?
You see the truth Paul has proclaimed in all of his epistles is you couldn't getright with God in a million life times of trial and error. You could never makeyourself right with God. God had to do what you couldn't do for yourself.
He had to become your saviour. He had to make you right with God. And he did sothrough the finished work of his perfectly righteous Son. His perfectlyrighteous Son willing to take all of your sin debt, the entirety of your sin-past, present and future. Sins you don't even know you'd commit in your lifetime. And he placed them on his perfectly righteous Son.
It didn't end there. The perfectly righteous Son rose again having satisfiedGod's justice for your sin.
On top of that when you take God at his word concerning that, Christ'srighteousness, his test score is written on your paper. It's an amazingtransfer. It's an amazing truth.
Romans 3:31 Do we thenmake void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Now some folks would say, There it is right there. Paul's saying we're notunder law we're under grace. Were establishing the law. So that means wereputting the law right back in.
How do we establish the law?
~~~We establish it by acknowledging the fact that the law was a picture ofGod's perfect righteousness where human performance is concerned. And that whenit comes to attaining to that righteous standard the law can not make a rightrelationship with God. Totally impossible.
How is our relationship establish?
Romans 3:21 But nowthe righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by thelaw and the prophets;
What did the law and prophets witness? You wanted to have a right relationshipwith God, you better do it all.
Deuteronomy 6:25
Romans 3:22 Even therighteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon allthem that believe: for there is no difference:
Believe what? That Christ was faithful. That's what we have to believe. That hewent to the cross just as he said. That he bore our sins there.
How many of my sins were future when Christ died for my sins? All of them werefuture.
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ....doesn't sayhere " which is by faith in Jesus Christ". By faith OF Jesus Christ,it's his faithfulness...unto all and upon all them that believe.
Christ was faithful. He went to the cross. He bore our sins there, the entiretyof the sin debt of the world. He died there for our sins. He was buried and onthe third day he rose again having completed all that was necessary toaccomplish our total and everlasting justification in the eyes of Almighty God.
By what bases is man considered righteous?
Romans 3:24 Beingjustified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is IN Christ Jesus upon allthem that believe. V22
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8/23/2011 7:23:51 AM
Topic:
10 Commandments Pt 2
pamruski
Posts: 21
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“Objects of God’s Love Pt2”
You can find the upload on youtube under my "playlist" scroll down to
"10 Commandments 7-29-07 No 39 These notes are taken from Pt 2.
No 2 July 29, 2007 One Commandment No 39
Curt Crist www.welcomeotograce.com
www.youtube.com/user/GraceAboundedMore
Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, askedhim a question, tempting him, and saying,
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in thelaw?
Notice he doesn't go back to the 10. He breaks the law down into basic ideas. While we had the judgments and the ordinancesand they were broken down into 10 commandments that covered both sides of thecoin.
Now we have the 10 broken down into two basic ideas.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lordthy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
(How many of us can say we do that today????)
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shaltlove thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law andthe prophets.
We see a narrowing down effect.
First of all, they had the whole law of Moses, 613 rules andregulations.
Then we saw that boiled down to The 10 Commandments.
There in Matthew, God boiled it down to two.
The apostle Paul boiled it down to one word, AGAPE.
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
The spirit, as some folks would say, of the entire law wouldbe satisfied if everyone would simply agape everyone else.
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thoushalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thoushalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is brieflycomprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: thereforelove is the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for yeare not under the law, but under grace.
Something is missing. When Paul gave us that listing inRomans 13:9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;
and if there be any other commandment, it is brieflycomprehended in this saying, namely,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Man's relationship to Man....Man's relationship to God
Which category is missing in that listing? Man's relationship to God is not includedthere. Why do you suppose Paul left thatpart out? The simply answer isthis. God was demonstrating to Israelthrough the law that she could never achieve a righteous standing before himaccording to a performance contract. Shecould never merit a relationship with God based upon her own performance. That would be totally impossible.
Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if weobserve to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hathcommanded us.
Is God dealing with believers today according to a lawcontract? No way not according to our apostle. That's why Paul leaves out that category of the law that dealt withman's relationship with God. he didn't say "do this, stop doingthat."
Romans 1-8 tells us how it is that we are consideredrighteous in the eyes of God today.
There is no scale in God's mind other than Christ'srighteousness. When you trust in thefinished cross work of Christ for your salvation, God puts Christ’s test scoreon your paper. That's called imputedrighteousness, righteousness that has been credited freely without any cause inyou to your account..
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8/23/2011 7:17:31 AM
Topic:
10 Commandments Pt1
pamruski
Posts: 21
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Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;}Notes taken from Philippians message #39
“Objects of God’s Love Pt2”
You can find the upload on youtube under my "playlist" scroll down to "10 Commandments 7-29-07 No 39 These notes are taken from Pt 1.Youtube channel ... www.youtube.com/user/GraceAboundedMore
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thoushalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thoushalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is brieflycomprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: thereforelove is the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is hightime to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when webelieved.
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: letus therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour oflight.
Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not inrioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife andenvying.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and makenot provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for yeare not under the law, but under grace.
Israel was under the law. We are not. Why does Paul often refer to the law and why does he righthere in our text introduce portions of the law? To understand what's happening here, we have to understand somethingabout the Law of Moses.
First of the Law of Moses can be divided into 3 majorcategories.
#1....The 10 commandments
#2.... The Ordinances
The Ordinances dealt with the religious aspect of Israel'slife. This would include the priesthood,the rituals things that went along with their religious service.
#3 The Judgments
The Judgments had to do with the day to day rules for livingthat God gave to the nation Israel.
Taken together the Law is compromised of 2 majorcomponents. One part was to governedman's relationship with God. That wouldbe the ordinance part. The ordinanceswere those rules to Israel in order to guide her relationship with God and topicture certain truths about spiritual things. Then you had the judgments whichwere God's laws to Israel concerning Man's relationship to man.
The first 4 commandments relate to man's relationship withGod.
Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought theeout of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Right off the bat a rule governing Israel's relationshipwith God. God would have Israelacknowledge him alone as God. Thou willhave no other husband. Israel had manylovers. She chased her lovers, nevercaught them. She worshiped false gods.
2 Kings 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said,O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubim, thou art the God,even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven andearth.
The Psalmist said it. Isaiah echoed. It the lawdemanded it. God was to be recognized inthe eyes of his earthly people as God alone. They were to have no other gods.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earthbeneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
This commandment had to do with idolatry. This governed man's relationship with God.
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy Godin vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Commandments 5 - 10 take the other side of the coin. Theywere intedned to governed man's relationship with man.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy daysmay be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thyneighbour.
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house,thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor hismaidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
So in effect we see a a condensing of the whole law.
Man's relationship with man.
Man's relationship with God.
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8/22/2011 9:36:30 AM
Topic:
Son issue today not a sin issue
pamruski
Posts: 21
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2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
The issue of sin was settled at Calvary. It is a Son issue today not a sin issue.
Christ didn't die to give men a reprieve.
He didn't die to give men temporary relief.
The only reason God could say through Paul, "Grace and Peace be unto you" is because his son fully paid the price.
It's not probation it's salvation.
Forgiving you is not something God must decide to do.
How many of us have grown up with the idea that God has to make a decision at some point in our life whether or not to forgive us for our sins. What did we just read? He's not imputing our trespasses unto us because he imputed them to his son. Forgiveness is something God made his mind up about before you were ever born and the decision was "Yes".
What would it take God? It would taking me putting all those sins on myself to take care of it. I'll put them on my son and he did. Christ would accomplish it by paying the price for your sin. Paul was commissioned to tell us about it. Your called upon to simply believe it.
Faith doesn't come in gallonage and tonage. Faith isn't something "do I have enough faith, have I believed firmly enough?" Faith is simply taking your stand where God takes his stand.
If God says I've reconciled you to me because I've taken all your sins before you were born.... I could see every sin you would ever commit past, present, future. I took all those sins off of you before you were born, I put them on my son. Now I've told Paul to tell you folks about it. I've made you folks ambassadors of it. Get out and be ambassadors. Tell people God is not counting their sins against them. They have the opportunity. They have the responsibility of making a decision. I will believe it or I will reject it. God's given them that choice.
Love doesn't force it self.
There are many who will spend an eternity apart from Christ because they refuse to accept what Christ did at Calvary on their behalf. The choice is theirs. God's given men the choice to reject or just to stand where he does. If you want to know that you have faith, just simply take your stand where God takes his. You don't have to know all the 50 cent theological terms involved. This isn't difficult. This is simply saying God said what HIS SON DID FOR ME WAS SUFFICIENT TO ABSOLVE ME OF MY SIN DEBT. Past, present, future, it's gone. God said He put it on HIS SON that He's reconciled myself to HIM. If God believes that, I'm going to take my stand where He takes HIS. FAITH.
Not only saved, sealed that very instance. Not only sealed that very instance, placed right into the person of Christ by a miracle the Holy Spirit preforms that you don't see.. feel.. hear.. sense other than knowing it's true by looking in the Bible and seeing it's true. You are placed into the person of Jesus Christ that very instance.
That means everything that belongs to him now belongs to you. You see why Paul could say,"We're complete in HIM." But you must believe. You must accept what God says is tarue about the cross work of his son. You must believe it to be placed into his son and have his test scored written out your paper.
Paul was saying a mouth full when he said
Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Rejoice in the Lord until it becomes a state of mind.
Do you awake every morning of your life with the security you have in Christ in your position in him having believed Paul's gospel.
Do you awake every morning contemplating his presence inside you through the indwelling Holy Spirit. And that inter-strength empowerment that Holy Spirit will give you. You don't have to ask for it. It's a provision of your belief.
You see it should never be about the degree of difficulty for any grace age believer. It should always be about the extent of the supply. What a supply we have! Very few stop to ponder....stop worrying long enough to ponder that supply. Much less do we ponder it on a daily bases in our lives so it becomes a state of mind.
Paul hasn't changed direction when he comes to rejoice alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Paul's still on the same point. The context remains the same, discord between two ladies who have their eyes on each other and not rejoicing together in the Lord. The focus is still liked mindedness and serving the cause of the one that died for us.
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8/22/2011 8:02:36 AM
Topic:
Live Broadcast
pamruski
Posts: 21
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Hope this helps Claudia.
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8/22/2011 8:01:42 AM
Topic:
Live Broadcast
pamruski
Posts: 21
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You can also see uploads on youtube of Curt at www.youtube.com/user/GraceAboundedMore
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8/22/2011 8:00:08 AM
Topic:
Live Broadcast
pamruski
Posts: 21
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The time Sunday morning for the live broadcast is 10:30 am Eastern...9:30 central etc. Sometimes ustream isn't up and running till maybe 15 minutes later but we are in paltalk more on time.
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8/22/2011 7:58:38 AM
Topic:
Live Broadcast
pamruski
Posts: 21
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HI Claudia, Curt is live only Sunday morning through paltalk.com and you can also watch him live through ustream on Sunday morning. You can see archived Video here www.ustream.tv/user/welcometograce/videos
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8/22/2011 6:46:52 AM
Topic:
Live Broadcast
CSB
Posts: 1
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Hello Everyone!
Can someone explain how the live broadcast works? I have tried going on to the website several different times on a Sunday to catch the live broadcast, but so far with no luck.
Thanks,
Claudia
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7/22/2011 6:24:06 PM
Topic:
Moses Seat & The Church's Mission
eleazar
Posts: 5
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INTRODUCTION
The on-line source Wikipedia states the following: “In Christian tradition, the Great Commission is the instruction of the resurrected Jesus Christ to his disciples, that they spread his teachings to all the nations of the world. It has become a tenet in Christian theology emphasizing mission work and evangelism. It has been a primary basis for Christian missionary activity.” The most popular source for the commission reads as follows: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe (tayreoo – Grk – to guard or keep attentively) all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Mt. 28:19&20).
The above statement and obviously the Scripture reference are pretty well acknowledged to be accurate even though during the 20th century there was some debate over the accurateness of the above statement. Notwithstanding those debates one passage of Scripture that must be reconciled with Mt. 28:19&20 is Mt. 23:1-3 which states the following: 1-Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2-Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3-All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe (Ibid.), that observe (Ibid.) and do (poiayo – Grk – to produce or act until completed); but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” An outstanding Bible teacher has noted, “This is a very important principle in correctly understanding the earthly ministry of Christ. The New Testament technically speaking, had not even begun as late as Matthew 23.” (Understanding the Gospels – A Different Approach, C. F. Baker, Grace Publications, Grand Rapids, MI 1978, ISBN 0-89814-044-7). If this is indeed part of the basis for today’s mission work and evangelism, then we must understand what part Moses’ seat has to do with that matter. We will look at the establishment of his seat and its continuation and see if we need to align the church’s mission today with this seemingly neglected requirement.
ESTABLISHMENT
You will read that Moses received instruction from his father-in-law, Jethro and established the seat with the provision, that if God didn’t think the seat was fitting then He would change the plan (Ex. 18:13-27). This was one of the weaknesses demonstrated by Moses during the wandering (See Num. 10:29-32 and note verse 33). (Moses seat is not described as an item of furniture in the tabernacle or the temple; however, God’s mercy seat is the only seat located in either building. Only Jehovah can rest in His temple.) With its formation it is easy to understand how and why this group of religious leaders were deemed fit to occupy the seat, “able men, hating covetousness” (Ex. 18.21). Yet, in practice they were legislators, proud and above all covetous (Mt. 23:4-7).
Moses seat was never established as a place for the giving of the law as we see it in Mt. 21:21, but for judging under the law. The word for “judge” in Ex. 18:13 is shaphat. It means to render a binding decision (criminal or civil) (guilty or acquitted) but NEVER implies legislation.
MAINTENANCE
Even in the later appointment of judges (Jud. 2:18), which may have been successors to the actions of Ex. 18, Scofield notes: “They were the spiritual ancestors of the prophets; that is to say, men raised of God, the theocratic King, to represent Him in the nation. They were patriots and religious reformers because national security and prosperity were inseparably connected with loyalty and obedience to Jehovah. Not one of the chosen deliverers had anything whereof to glory.” (Scofield Reference Bible, pg 289). As we see in Mt. 23:1-3 the responsibility eventually fell on the church of Israel to judge.
The sole contention of Christendom regarding this passage is that Sola Scriptura or “only Scripture” is the basis for the orthodox faith. The Reformation has proven this contention to be correct; however, at the time Matthew received the revelation of the gospel account bearing his name, Paul had not received Rom. 6:14. Therefore, observing and doing The Law given to Moses in Matthew and for over a decade thereafter was what Messiah’s believers did.
ITS EFFECT ON THE CHURCHS’ MISSION
So what we see is Christendom missing the significance of Mt. 23:1-3 and its relationship to the observances of the passage along with Mt. 28:19&20. If indeed both passages carry equal weight in their demand to guard and keep both The Law of Moses and the commission, then a person who is faithful to practicing the commission of Mt. 28 will also observe The Law. The faithful disciple will not only require the pennant to be baptized, but he will direct them to Israel’s Temple in order to seek out the scribes and Pharisees judgment. The twelve apostles went to the Temple to seek the conversion of the occupants of Moses seat (Acts 3:1,19-21). Some of the occupants were converted (Acts 6:7), but no judgeship is a democracy (Lk. 11:17). The Temple, which was God’s habitation (Heb. 8:5) on the earth must be converted (Lk. 9:62) along with its ministers. The record and history are clear that this did not happen (Acts 13:46&47). Therefore, the commission is not observed today nor are the judgments of the scribes and Pharisees observed either (Rom. 11:31&32).
Now you should know that there is another choice. With Paul’s epistles we see a departure from the legalism of The Gospels and early Acts. There is no “Moses Seat” observance with Paul’s message. Paul even makes a point of essential observances, which were committed to Moses (Gal. 4:9&10) and that they are “weak” (Rom. 8:3) and “beggarly” or “cringing”. That is because of the condition of the observer or keeper. Believing Gentiles are not commanded to be baptized (1 Cor. 1:17) and observe the Law, but are only commanded to observe temporary dietary restrictions in Acts 21:25, which even later passed away (1 Ti. 4:3). We are well aware that Paul commands the keeping of God’s commandments (1 Cor. 7:19; however, Paul does not identify these as the Ten Commandments. For we know that Paul was capable of identifying the teachings committed to Moses (Acts 26:22; 28:23; Rom. 10:5&19; 1 Cor. 9:9; 2 Cor. 3:15; Heb. 3:2-5; 7:14) and in fact restates all the Ten Commandments, except for the keeping of the Sabbath.)
All that being said, is it not exceedingly precious that God has taken all the observe and keep requirements away from us and replaced it with God’s exceedingly superlative observance and His keeping as displayed at Calvary (Rom. 3:21-26) and even better yet, He reconciled Jew and Gentile through His death, burial, resurrection and ascension and receives everyone who will observe Rom. 5:8-10; 8:7, 2 Cor. 5:14-21 & Eph. 3:8&9 in stark contrast to the pronouncements by the Pharisees who sit in Moses Seat.
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7/6/2011 2:50:11 PM
Topic:
The Law is Still in Full Effect, right?
eleazar
Posts: 5
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The Law was not abolished, instead it was The Law as contained in ordinances. The Law is still righteous (Rom. 3:31), but as Paul emphasizes in his later ministry it's the ordinances that were "annulled" through His flesh. The Law stands, but the works derived from implementing the Law needed to be idled.
So from that conclusion, we need to determine what are "the ordinances". The New Unger's Bible Dictionary was no help when it begins the definition as follows: "These are 'outward rites prescribed by Christ to be performed by His Church' (Charles Ryrie)". It doesn't get any better therafter. Talk about not doing ones research!! In Eph. 2:15 Paul writes that Christ did away with such things as ordinances and after 20 centuries men still insist that He hasn't done away with them! It makes you crazy - doesn't it?!?
The word ordinance occurs first in our Bibles at Exodus 18:20, which precedes the appointment of intercession for the nations (chapter 19) and the giving of The Law (chapter 20). It reads, And you shall teach them the ordinances and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do. This verse in itself is the definition of ordinances when we read, the way in which they must walk and the work they must do. "Walk" and "work" that's what ordinances were for under the Old Covenant. This 18th chapter of Exodus is indeed a picture of the Millenium. Jethro being a Gentile and coming to Moses is a picture of that time to come.
Two times Paul writes about these ordinances. Once in Eph. 2:15 (doctrine on abolishment) and once in Col. 2:14 (correction on their implementation of the abolishment). In the Colossians passage "no difference" believers, as we are today; needed to be guided away from the "walk" and "work" that had been implemented under the inauguration of the ordinances. An example being, the ordinance of the Sabbath of Exodus 16, which as stated earlier was also in The Law given in Exodus 20. The Law of Moses and the ordinances in this case overlap. There is no Sabbath ordinance for today.
The order of Exodus 18:20 is reversed in Ephesians when Paul writes "to" us, For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (2:10) In Christ, the order is reversed from the call of Israel.
He works -- we work -- He prepared our walk -- we walk.
edited by eleazar on 7/6/2011
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7/6/2011 2:30:00 PM
Topic:
The Failure to Rightly Divide
eleazar
Posts: 5
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The failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth promulgates hybrid dispenasationalism. What do I mean by that, you may ask?
Hybrid dispensationalism – never heard of it
During the latter half of the 20th century an effort was begun to homogenize Protestant, indeed all Christianity into a group known as evangelicals. The evangelical strategy was for the lines of separation, which usually involved borrowing a factor of the covenants God made with Israel; were to be obliterated by compromise, in order to seek a union for unity. Some pursued this goal with good intent. They saw the error of denominationalism (Rom. 16:17) and wanted to see the church strengthened as the Lord had directed from heaven (Eph. 4:3). Others pursued this goal with different intent (See 1 Cor. 14:8). To use a metaphor, we know that when dairy products are homogenized, they are pasteurized, first. Pastuerization removes several characteristics of the original and creates a “safe” product. Just so, the pasteurization of the teaching in much of the Christian community has done more to encourage the homogenization of Hybrid Dispensationalism (HD) than to encourage a beneficial wave of non-denominationalism. This in turn has discouraged the efforts sought for the above strategy and is turning the church towards a 21st Century Gnosticism. A Gnosticism of progressive discouragement of the literal interpretation of the Bible.
After all, dispensationalism is a legitimate and conservative viewpoint. Another Christian does not have to agree with it, but he should represent it fairly. This is simply a matter of Christian integrity – Charles Ryrie – (Luke 6:41)
Hybrid dispensationalism – what is it?
It is the position that is generally promulgated by Acts 2 dispensationalism, which essentially postulates that Paul's ministry was an outgrowth of the church at Jerusalem's outreach and that nothing Paul preached was different from what was in the mind of Peter and the eleven apostles at Pentecost. Of course they never proclaimed these truths during the early Acts and “allowed” Paul to proclaim what they supposedly knew in mid and later Acts. It is a hybrid because it discards clear statements by Paul in Acts (13:45&46) and his epistles (Eph. 3:1-9, Rom. 16:25 & 1 Tim. 1:13-16 to name a few), that his revelation was unknown apart from his calling and ministry. Further, it presumes that Peter and the eleven were proclaiming the salvation message of Paul's epistles rather than a need for Israel first to come to Christ as messiah (Acts 3:19-21) and then the world could enjoy the blessings of Isa. 65&66 and similar millennial prophecy. It is deemed “hybrid”, because it takes features of God's prophecy and mystery programs and mixes them into a system of theology somewhat akin to modern covenant theology.
Take a look at any doctrinal statement of an Acts 2 organization and they consist of what we call 1) standards of the faith and 2) policies of the members. Standards of the faith are contained in the creeds and are fundamental to Christian fellowship, for example: The trinity of the Godhead; the inspiration of Scripture; the virgin birth; the vicarious death and resurrection of Christ and His return in glory. The failure to believe any of these is a failure to believe all of them. The policies of the members are those teachings, which have been established and are maintained by consensus. For example, there is the belief that the Body of Christ constitutes “a nation of priests”(1 Pet. 2:9); this statement applies to restored Israel (Ex. 19:6) not the Body of Christ, where only one mediator exists (1 Ti. 2:5). Failure to believe these policies generally results in withdrawal of fellowship and that withdrawal an unscriptural practice.
the effect of Hybrid dispensationalism
With the commercialization of the National Information Infrastructure, commonly called the internet, we can access a great many statements of faith, guiding principles, et al. Embarrassingly to most folks is that they are very similar, which means that they have pretty well become one denomination, but they are NOT non-denominational. Subjects that need to be examined, remain ambiguous and unresolved. The following are a very few examples:
1) Studies on dispensationalism indicate, that the key to understanding the subject is to differentiate Israel and the Church, but definitions provided are either poor or missing altogether. Often times identifying restored Israel (the bride (Rev. 21:9)) as the Body of Christ (Eph. 5:27).
2) Every statement of either hybrid dispensationalism or covenant theology indicate that there are two church ordinances – water baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Now we are assured that Paul commands the observing of ordinances (1 Cor. 11:2), but in this same epistle he is pretty clear that baptism and fine oratory diminish “the gospel” (1 Cor. 1:14-17). We can ask, “are the ordinances Paul commands to be observed what were commanded at the council of Jerusalem?” The answer is “not likely (Acts 15:29) for not even circumcision is commanded” and this from Peter and the eleven “men full of the Holy Spirit”.
The men who were sent to the circumcision (Gal. 2:2-9) never indicate that these are the two abiding ordinances for the dispersed of Israel. Also please note that the Lord’s Supper is never an ordinance, but it is a memorial. Now there are indeed traditions delivered to the church and several can be found in Romans 12 & 13.
3) Statements from most groups indicate that the mission of the church is that, which is found at Matt. 28:19 & 20. It seems to be the most widely accepted, even though this commission REQUIRES water baptism and abiding the Law of Moses (Matt. 23:1-3). All this in spite of the fact that there are many commissions after the resurrection (See Mk. 16:16-18; Lk. 24:47-49; Jn 20:22&23; Acts 1:8; 2 Cor 5:14-21; Eph. 3:8&9). With all these choices the legalistic commission of Matthew is the only one agreed upon?!?
4) The division of Scripture into Old and New Testament is the highest level of Bible study that hybrid dispensationalism achieves to. This in spite of the fact that the Lord Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John and Paul give no such priority. The Lord emphasizes the Law and the Prophets and Paul emphasizes the contrast between law and grace and most importantly THE MYSTERY as the completion of God’s plan (Col.1:26).
in conclusion
Hybrid dispensationalism is destroying the scholarly pursuit of what Paul called “testing the things that differ” (Phil. 1:10). Hybrid dispensationalism is the outcome of an “evangelical” dispensationalism. Over the last thirty years or so, examining church policy would seem to equate to “false teaching” or “apostasy” in most denominations. Actually the Greek word epecho at Rom. 16:17 means, that these matters need to be in our focus. They need attention because God detests ignorance on any matter of faith (See Acts 17:30; 1 Cor. 10:1; 12:1; 2 Cor. 1:8; 2:11; & 1 Thes. 4:13). If hybrid dispensationalism is the only accepted approach to studying the Word of God then no more Martin Luther’s dare follow their conscience and the teaching of Scripture. A warning here is appropriate, and that is; with hybrid dispensationalism, do not expect a diminishing of the cults or “isms”. The only solution to them is that each believer must be encouraged to obey 2 Ti. 2:15. Armed with this injunction alone and the power of God’s Spirit, there will be educated professors and possessors of the Word of God.
PAUL'S exhortation to the younger preacher, Timothy, has come home to many with great power in recent years. As a result, there has been a return to more ancient methods of Bible study, which had been largely neglected during the centuries of the Church's drift from apostolic testimony. Augustine's words have had a re-affirmation: "Distinguish the ages, and the Scriptures are plain." And so there has been great emphasis put in many quarters, and rightly so, upon the study of what is commonly known as "dispensational" truth. This line of teaching, if kept within Scriptural bounds, cannot but prove a great blessing to the humble student of the Word of God who desires to know His will or plan in His dealings with men from creation to the coming glory. – Harry Ironside
edited by eleazar on 7/6/2011
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7/6/2011 2:23:49 PM
Topic:
Who Do You Find It Harder to Talk To?
eleazar
Posts: 5
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I have been reading Bullinger's book titled, The Church Epistles and it presents much of what I as a mid-Acts believer hold to be true on the whole counsel of God.
I have been asking myself lately a question about "why" do so many of our fellow believers, post that mid-Acts believers or dispensationalism is to be warned against. There are literally hundreds of sites who detest doctrines such as The Rapture as a nineteenth century invention and depend on uninspired church historians as validation of their contention. Further, those who post about the matter use little Scripture and can never use Paul's own words; in order to steer us to what I consider lesser truth or to steer, what I may assume is their adherrants (infant or mature) to a superior hope over The Rapture.
When I say lesser truth above I mean admixtures of prophecy and The Mystery, that their tradition NOT good hermeneutics lead them to start battling us about.
One thought that comes to mind is perhaps a bit tough on them, but I think of when Paul wrote the following regarding the current situation of the Jews: ... and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3) What do I mean by that? Well many commentaries that support an other than Pauline only Rapture, teach that today's church must "work" to be those, ... who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne ... (Rev. 3:21). In light of Paul's teaching in Romans about salvation today, isn't such a thought just plain blasphemy? Especially when we read the remainder of verse 21, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Can anyone in this dispensation do as Christ did in overcoming Satan and his host? For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (Rom. 5:6), that's the condition of today's church as to an overcoming capability.
There are other reasons, that we may examine on the matter. I have been corresponding with one who states, that The Rapture is a recent invention. He writes to me in part, He [Paul] speaks in 1 Thessalonians 4 of "the coming of the Lord." Is that different than the coming of the Lord in Matthew 24:42? Paul does not say so; to the contrary, he describes it in identical language -- the coming of the Lord with clouds and a trumpet and the gathering of God's people.
As he points to the passage in Matthew as identical to what he calls "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thes. 4, he makes a little (big) mistake. It is not identical as he concludes for Matt. 24:15 says that appearing of the Lord is according to Daniel. Nowhere in 1 Thes. 4 does the gathering together happen according to any prophecy. In fact, 1 Thes. 4 is in exactly the opposite order of that described in Daniel. In Daniel the living go into the New Jerusalem first, but in 1 Thes. 4. the dead precede the living to the Father's Right Hand. There is no Jerusalem present in 1 Thes. 4.
I wrote back to my correspondent about this and he wrote the following: The entire distinction between the so-called "rapture" versus the Second Coming of Christ is a Dispensational invention, something that was only postulated in the early 1800's. It is obviously something that is not clearly taught in the Scriptures, otherwise someone at some time would have seen in the first 1800 years of the church.
I guess when in doubt - bluff and bluster?!
So the bottom line is that we're close to them, until they start looking for Christians to throw under the bus!! Then the same old admixture comes out (i.e. there's more of them then us, so let's say something false about them as often as we can.) Unfortunately, if they truly do believe God's Word; they are babes in Christ (1 Cor. 3:3) and blind guides to their adherrants.
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7/4/2011 10:02:38 AM
Topic:
Gal. 2:7 what do you read
eleazar
Posts: 5
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Janie-
I would like to ask you a question. On what Scripture do you base your structure of today's gospel? If it is 1 Cor. 15:1-4, then in all fairness you must consider clear through vs. 53 as today's gospel content as well. Stopping at the resurrection does confuse many in the Body of Christ on the matter of the difference that the gospels preached by Peter and Paul. In 1 Cor 15, Paul sets forth the proofs of His resurrection from those who had seen Him before and after His death as does Peter in his second epistle. Next though, Paul gives succeeding elements unique to today's gospel, one of which is recognizing Him after His ascension. The record indicates that some had known The Lord on earth, but Paul did not know him thusly. Paul was the last human to see The Lord and only then as ascended and at the Father's Right Hand. Finally and also just as important is the last element of the gospel committed to Paul is what Paul calls the Adoption in Romans 8, our gathering together unto Him here in 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 or what many call The Rapture. None of the last two elements of the gospel committed to Paul are committed to Peter. Further, The Twelve's gospel emphasis is always upon Peter's testimony at Matthew 16:16. In Peter's and John's writings and in what they preached namely the death, burial and resurrection; these are facts for establishing the two truths of Matt. 16:16 and that as far as The Twelve are concerned. For to them even today, The King has embarked into a far country. The gospel of the circumcision has as one of its essential elements that The Nation NOT other nations, believe that Jesus is The Father's choice and that He alone is the Son of God (see John 3:16-18). The gospel of the circumcision can not commence without that as a beginning tenet, but after belief of that it diverges into an earthly hope. Whereas, the gospel of the uncircumcision embraces that Christ is the Father's choice and the Son of God, but at that point no relationship exists between the uncircumcised or "no difference" believers and The Father. Therefore, God established a relationship as explained in Romans 5:1-11. The gospel of the uncircumcision without the revelation committed to Paul is also still just an earthly hope. We must be mindful that Abram knew nothing of the Pauline revelation. What makes the gospel of the uncircumcision different from the gospel of the circumcision in Galatians chapter 2, is that with the pronouncement of the different gospel recipients in the chapter. Their IS a differentiation of the hope of the uncircumcised nations from the hope of the circumcised Jew forever and that is from Galatians 2 and Acts 15 on.
Believer's today have five elements of the gospel whether they appreciate them fully or not and those elements are as follows:
1) death;
2) burial;
3) resurrection;
4) ascension; and
5) imminent gathering together.
You may say does not the above indicate that Matthew 16:16 foretells the revelation of The Mystery. No one can honestly come to that conclusion from reading The Gospel accounts and comparing it to Paul's revelation.
NOTE: In reading Paul's record of his pure bred lineage in Phil. 3:4-6 isn't it interesting that he considered his value to God at the circumcision instituted with Abraham and NOT at the promise given to Abram for the earth in Gen. 15. The Damascus Road changed the circumcision's and uncircumcision's hope forever.
edited by eleazar on 7/4/2011
edited by eleazar on 7/6/2011
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6/3/2011 7:39:39 PM
Topic:
Forum activity (or lack of it)
pamruski
Posts: 21
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I've had 2 people contact me telling me they can't get signed in ....it took me an hour or more when I posted the prayer article and the news letter.
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5/30/2011 12:04:14 PM
Topic:
Prayer
pamruski
Posts: 21
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Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;}Notes taken by Mrs Potter from one of Curt's messages on prayer June 28, 1998
Rom 59 The Holy Spirit and Prayer / But Now pt2 Rom8:18-30
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with ourspirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God,and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of thispresent time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall berevealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creaturewaiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity,not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall bedelivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of thechildren of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groanethand travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they,but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselvesgroan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, towit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that isseen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth ourinfirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but theSpirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot beuttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth whatis the mind of the Spirit, because hemaketh intercession for the saints according to thewill of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together forgood to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also didpredestinate to be conformed to theimage of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Whatcauses suffering? If you are suffering today it is not because God has singledyou out as a special target of his wrath. During this dispensation of grace Godis holding off his wrath, storing it up till the day of wrath. We bring on ourown suffering due to lifestyles we lead.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: forwhatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Threeantidotes to suffering - 1- remember our prospect of glory , 2 - remember theprayer of the Spirit. How does the Spirit help us when we are suffering today?Comfort. What kind of comfort does the Spirit provide? In time past, God’s wayof dealing with distress was thru the prayer of faith.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, thatwill I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I willdo it.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you,ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask inprayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Thecreation will rejoice when it is delivered from suffering.
Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shallbe glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
Isa 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice evenwith joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, theexcellency of Carmeland Sharon, theyshall see the glory of the LORD, andthe excellency of our God.
Deliveranceconnected with seeing the Lord. When these are connected, judgment is at hand.
Isa 35:3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm thefeeble knees.
Isa 35:4 Say to them thatare of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God willcome with vengeance, even God witha recompence; he will come and save you.
Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened,and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumbsing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Thisis what James was talking about, when all these things take place, the prayerof faith shall save the sick. The kingdom God had offered to Israel wasright at hand and God gave them a taste of that kingdom, of their deliverance.God let them see their deliverance. God’s glory was magnified thru seeing, andthe prayer of faith was the catalyst. Knowing that God has now placed Christ’s kingdom rule on hold for atime, does God intend us to apply the prayer of faith today? No. It’s not aquestion of whether God can do it or not, but is he. Is God working thru theprayer of faith today that we might see our deliverance? The context of this section is suffering.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hopethat is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Savedmeans delivered. We usually think of eternal salvation when we see the wordsaved. When are we going to be delivered / saved from our suffering? When thesons of God are manifested, when we realize the redemption of our bodies. Thisis where our hope lies, in the redemption of these corrupted bodies. We aredelivered from our suffering by hope. Remember the question, Is God workingthru the prayer of faith today that we might see our deliverance?
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that isseen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Deliverancefrom our suffering body that we can see is not hope.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Theproblem is not prayer but the ones praying who know not what they are prayingfor. What do we pray for when we suffer? We ask God to fix the problem, get ridof it. We ask deliver me from my suffering and let me see my deliverance, andthe sooner the better.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth ourinfirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but theSpirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot beuttered.
Whyare we praying wrongly? In most cases, we are attempting to apply the prayer offaith of another dispensation to this current dispensation. When we don’t seeresults we blame it on the person’s lack of faith, or sin in their life and Godis punishing them someway.
Godallows us to look back at the cross of Christ that we might see the expressionof his love and kindness toward us here in the present. God will not allowanything in the present to be added to that past expression of his love. Whenwe say God is good today we need to be looking at the cross. When we say God isfaithful today we need to be looking forward to our future hope. Hope that isseen in the present is not hope at all. Paul said we know not what we shouldpray for as we ought.
Phi 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing byprayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known untoGod.
Paulprayed 3 times for healing, but did Paul know what he should pray for? God knewbetter than Paul what would ultimately work far more glory.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficientfor thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly thereforewill I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest uponme.
Godknew something that Paul didn’t know, that God’s strength was brought tocompletion in a suffering Paul. If this be the case and we pray and ask to bedelivered from our suffering, what are we asking God to do? We are asking thathis strength not be perfected in our lives. That says that our present need tosee deliverance is more important to us than the manifestation of God’sstrength. We look at it differently, thinking that God could show his strengthby delivering us from our sufferings. Paul is telling us to put our future hopeon display today, in faithfully suffering thru our dilemma. Our patient andfaithful endurance thru suffering is a way of demonstrating our future hope,and when others see this, it brings glory to God. The grace and strength Godgives you to endure your suffering is the strength of God put on display.
1Th 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for ashort time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to seeyour face with great desire.
1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even IPaul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
Paulwanted to go back to Thessalonica, he was worried about them. Did Paul prayabout this?
1Th 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly thatwe might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
1Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our LordJesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
Paulis praying for God to send him back, they needed him. But did Paul know what topray for as he ought? Satan used circumstances in spite of all Paul’s prayersto hinder his return. No where are we told that Paul ever return there. DidPaul know what to pray or did God know better? What if God had answered thatprayer and sent Paul back? Then we would not have this letter. God knew thatnearly 2000 yrs later we would be able to read these Thess. Epistles. Epistlesthat Paul would not have had to write if he had returned and took his messageto them in person. God say the greater picture.
Thereare 2 extreme views to prayer today. 1-Casualism - why pray at all, everything happens by change and God has noinvolvement. God has no purpose or design for things that happen in our lives.
2- Fatalism - All events have been predetermined and will play themselves out,why pray if everything has already been predetermined. Casualism denies God’sprovidence, denies that God is actively working thru the events in our lives.Fatalism denies man’s freedom and God’s wisdom.
Godis not bringing on your suffering today, but is allowing you to undergo suchsuffering as is common to all men and he is working thru it all the while. Godcan and does work in the life of a believer. Paul tells us how he does it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth ourinfirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but theSpirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot beuttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth whatis the mind of the Spirit, because hemaketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Paulwants us to remember the prayer of the Spirit. He does not say... the Spiritmakes intercession for us with groaning that cannot be understood. Theycan not be uttered. You will never have audio access to the HolySpirit’s prayers. You will not hear them at all. The Holy Spirit is not tellingyou how to pray, he is praying himself. This could truly be called an unspokenprayer. In a failure to rightly divide the word, some wrongly read this versein an effort to validate speaking in tongues, they change uttered to understoodand add, unless u have an interpreter. That is not what the verse says. Paulalso did not say the Spirit makes interpretation for us. In other words, theSpirit is not rephrasing our prayers and uttering them in an unknown languagethat only God can understand so God can best determine when and how to deliverwhat we want.
TheHoly Spirit is not interpreting our prayers. He is not praying our prayer atall. He is praying his own prayer. His is praying according to the will of God.If God’s will today is to be glorified thru your patient endurance of thesuffering saint that you are, saints who are putting future hope on display,saints who are not looking at their present circumstances, when you pray Godtake away this pain and suffering, the Holy Spirit knows for sure that we donot know what to pray for as we ought. Then the Holy Spirit begins to pray anentirely different prayer. Something like, Father help them to learn the thingsyou would have them learn during his time of suffering, give him grace andstrength to endure the hardship, in the midst of this pain and suffering helphim to put his hope on display so that in his weakness you may be glorified.
3-the third antidote for suffering - remember the purpose of God for you thebeliever.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together forgood to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the imageof his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Godis working out his plan and purpose in your life today and he has predeterminedto conform you to the image of his Son and that involves suffering.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for amoment, worketh for us a far more exceeding andeternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which areseen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Paulis still in the context of suffering here. Suffering is common to all men, somerecover, some do not, believer and non believer alike. But the believer has theopportunity in our suffering to put our future hope on display that God nightbe magnified. What is that hope?
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have abuilding of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring tobe clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Paulsaid he rather glory in his infirmities. He learned what was happening. Wepeople on earth package everything and we expect the Lord to package his planjust like we would. We want that logic that we would use to be his logic. Whenit isn’t we wonder what’s wrong up there, it’s not working out as I would workit out. We want our suffering out of the way. Prayer was never given to changeGod’s perspective of our greater preference. Prayer was given to change ourperspective of God’s greater purpose. God’s purpose today is not to strengthenour faith by altering our circumstance. His greater purpose is to allow us todemonstrate our faith today as we remain strong in spite of our circumstances.Prayer was never given to bring God in alignment with your wants. It was givento bring you in alignment with God’s will. Prayer changes attitudes. Ineverything give thanks and make your requests known, not with thanksgiving forreceiving , but with thanksgiving that God is in control and that he isperfecting what he has begun in you. What do we get when we pray?
Phi 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing byprayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known untoGod.
Phi 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth allunderstanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Thepurpose of prayer in this dispensation of grace is not for the purpose ofgetting God to perform, but it is to give the believer peace. When we take ourconcerns to God in prayer, we can rest in the confident assurance that the HolySpirit is praying his own prayer on our behalf that God’s purpose be fulfilledin our lives and that we have the grace and strength to put our hope on displayas we endure the suffering we undergo. It does not matter if you gather ahundred people together, all praying the prayer of faith, because God is notworking today that way. You will be disappointed at best, disillusioned atworst. Remember your prospect of glory, the prayer of the Spirit, and thepurpose of God for you the believer and keep praying all the while.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceedingabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that workethin us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him beglory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.Amen.
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5/30/2011 11:58:29 AM
Topic:
Feb 15 2011 Welcome to Grace Newletter question
pamruski
Posts: 21
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Been trying off and on for hours to try to get logged on here...finally made it.
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